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General Discussion / Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Last post by Khargan on May 21, 2019, 10:45:16 AM »
I think it is obvious that the two versions of Spray presented by the combat summary and page 287 are irreconcilable. The former clearly states it costs a twitch and three charges to activate spray, and the latter only requires spending three charges for a free attack. Thus, as most of you surmise, two versions have existed through development of the system, and remnants of both remain in the rule book. Going by the rules and examples, both seem likely candidates to have been the intended version. I favor the interpretation that page 287 is the correct one since it's the most fleshed out of the two.

However, what's more important is to consider the merits of the two versions, both thematically and mechanically.

Thematically
Requiring a twitch action to spray completely negates the theme of a weapon being able to spray out a lot of bullets, as even a lowly hand gun can make the same number of attacks as an LMG per round in this variant, that number of attacks being 2 for both weapons. The effect, when it requires a twitch, has very little to do with the idea of "spraying", but is more akin to a "quick shot", as it allows the second possible attack to be performed on the same initiative. I think that for this reason alone Spray shouldn't require a twitch to perform, but only the three charges (a large price already), as this conform to how Rifles and LMGs should work thematically: By spending tons of charges and going all out, they can deliver 4 attacks in a single round, as opposed to only 2 by the less potent weapons such as the hand gun or the slowly firing heavy rifle.

Mechanically
Spray requires a Twitch: In this version, spending three charges and a twitch accomplishes up to two things -
1. The second attack is done on your own initiative, and your don't have to declare Full Offensive before you start shooting. This benefit is situational, as it requires a combat scenario where the difference in initiative matters, which against stuff like casualties often won't be the case.
2. When not changing target (against humans), you get another automatic hit. This is arguably the main benefit of Spray, and even paying the extra twitch for it might be fine, but consider this: Without spray, you could spend those three charges (all spray weapons are charged) and get a +2 attack with your twitch. However, against humans, the upgrade in this version is actually silly when you change target: You have to roll to hit again for the second attack. In this case, it would probably often be better to just use 1 charge for a second attack on a later initiative, instead of using 3 charges.

By requiring a twitch to spray, it makes the hand gun almost as powerful as a rifle, despite the rifle costing more, requiring two hands (a major cost) and having extra upkeep. The costs of using these two weapons are vastly different, but in this version, both can lay down the same amount of fire power, the rifle just avoids splitting the attacks up initiative-wise. Yes, the spray on the rifle might grant a sure hit for 3 charges and a twitch, but that is not much different to just using 3 charges for 3 extra damage using the hand gun's automatic quality. Thus, even on the mechanical side of things I would argue for Spray not requiring a Twitch.

To surmise, I think that Spray not requiring a twitch action to activate is both mechanically and thematically the superior version.
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General Discussion / Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Last post by Dr_NANO on May 21, 2019, 08:24:03 AM »
@Dadalos nice to see you also got to the same conclusion.

When we start playing next week I am going to play that Spray requires a Twitch, and see how it works out in real play. So you can not do a full offense AND spray on any of the Tactics. Teapot would probably have died if they played it this way ;)

It makes going action hero shooty a bit more dangerous though so the Takers has to consider it carefully.
43
General Discussion / Re: Throwing Grenades and Melee Weapons - What Skill?
« Last post by LordSkys on May 21, 2019, 04:17:10 AM »

I'm pretty sure anything thrown is short range, since the default handgun is short range. I know it takes a well trained hand to shoot out to about 40 meters, but most people using handguns in taker crews at this stage of the game are usually pretty well trained or using it as a close up weapon. Also all weapons with the weighted upgrade (throwing variant) are short-range.

Personally, I'd only allow it out to medium range if they crit succeed the Melee/Athletics check.

quick google-fu lead me to some reasonable answers on various ranges of things:
suggest that a weighted thrown weapons more in the 25-30 meter mark / the Grenade being 35 meters / with optimal gun ranges being between 15-30 meters.

so if all that is classified as 'short' then that makes since, In my head - short was always under 15 meters but more then 6.(anything less was counted as melee as far as our games were concerned) and so with explosives that was always felt to close so they were ruled med range. with the average grenade having a kill box of about 5 meters as is, with wounding being significantly larger.

Yeah. The shamble system does help with all that though. Since a shamble is just an inconsistent amount of movement, you can make the distance different for different combats.

Since Vectors sprint, maybe shambles are "zoomed out" when fighting them. This would be more in line with having multiple ranges within 10 shambles.
When fighting a single slow casualty in a parking lot miles across with no cars, maybe only short and Melee are within 10 shambles, since anything farther is well out of the danger area.

We've always played it like this at our table, so idk if that is weird. Shambles are relative to the scene, and range along with it.
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General Discussion / Re: Throwing Grenades and Melee Weapons - What Skill?
« Last post by Dadalos on May 21, 2019, 03:06:36 AM »

I'm pretty sure anything thrown is short range, since the default handgun is short range. I know it takes a well trained hand to shoot out to about 40 meters, but most people using handguns in taker crews at this stage of the game are usually pretty well trained or using it as a close up weapon. Also all weapons with the weighted upgrade (throwing variant) are short-range.

Personally, I'd only allow it out to medium range if they crit succeed the Melee/Athletics check.

quick google-fu lead me to some reasonable answers on various ranges of things:
suggest that a weighted thrown weapons more in the 25-30 meter mark / the Grenade being 35 meters / with optimal gun ranges being between 15-30 meters.

so if all that is classified as 'short' then that makes since, In my head - short was always under 15 meters but more then 6.(anything less was counted as melee as far as our games were concerned) and so with explosives that was always felt to close so they were ruled med range. with the average grenade having a kill box of about 5 meters as is, with wounding being significantly larger.
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General Discussion / Re: Quick-Start Takers
« Last post by LordSkys on May 21, 2019, 02:48:50 AM »
Bounty Hunter: Before the Crash, you made a living bringing in people who skipped court dates or didn't pay court mandated money to certain parties. You're adjustment to taking IDs off dead people wasn't difficult.
Potentials: STR +1, SPD +1
Skills: Criminalty 1, Athletics 1, Unarmed 1, Resistance 1, Stealth 1.
Gear: Backpack, Rations, Lockpicker's Kit, Ubiq Specs, Padded Gloves, 1 Bounty.

Civil Engineer: You worked on roads and dams before the Crash. Maintenance is difficult since the end of the world, but enclaves always need infrastructure.
Potentials: ADP +1, INT +1
Skills: Scavenge 1, Profession (Civil Engineer) 1, Research 1, Foresight 1, Awareness 1
Gear: Backpack, Rations, DDJ, Warhammer, 5 bounty.
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General Discussion / Re: Throwing Grenades and Melee Weapons - What Skill?
« Last post by LordSkys on May 21, 2019, 02:29:33 AM »
For grenades specifically, I think Athletics makes much more sense. I would also restrict them to short range. For the melee weapons, I think it's fair enough that the melee skill is also used to throw them.

The average Soldier can throw the M67 grenade 35 meters.

I would argue that at least qualifies for medium range, considering that even though takers arnt professional soldiers they could still throw past what id consider 'short'.

something like Molotovs though would be more appropriate to short range perhaps because of their shape, but there quite alot of work put into making grenades throwable. and I agree with athletics being used to throw them while others default to str standards.

I'm pretty sure anything thrown is short range, since the default handgun is short range. I know it takes a well trained hand to shoot out to about 40 meters, but most people using handguns in taker crews at this stage of the game are usually pretty well trained or using it as a close up weapon. Also all weapons with the weighted upgrade (throwing variant) are short-range.

Personally, I'd only allow it out to medium range if they crit succeed the Melee/Athletics check.
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General Discussion / Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Last post by Dadalos on May 21, 2019, 01:38:48 AM »
Also, the rules for Will Points only allow so much.

Turn a crit failure into a failure.
Switch Black and Red Dice.
Turn a success into a crit success.

Before you ask, yes I am a nice Market. I don't allow people to break the rules, but I give them take backs on stupid things.

"Okay, so you flip the red and black dice on your infection check. That makes it B7+2/R7. Two sevens is a crit fail, so you begin going latent."

heh, you are a nice market, we use a mix of boom and bust rules to flavor the game, we dont add anything to infection rules stating that blight infects everyone without bias. the best thing you could hope for in a 7/7 is that someones close enough to do something about it. HELLLOOOOO self control checks...
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General Discussion / Re: Throwing Grenades and Melee Weapons - What Skill?
« Last post by Dadalos on May 21, 2019, 01:31:43 AM »
For grenades specifically, I think Athletics makes much more sense. I would also restrict them to short range. For the melee weapons, I think it's fair enough that the melee skill is also used to throw them.

The average Soldier can throw the M67 grenade 35 meters.

I would argue that at least qualifies for medium range, considering that even though takers arnt professional soldiers they could still throw past what id consider 'short'.

something like Molotovs though would be more appropriate to short range perhaps because of their shape, but there quite alot of work put into making grenades throwable. and I agree with athletics being used to throw them while others default to str standards.
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General Discussion / Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Last post by LordSkys on May 21, 2019, 01:24:23 AM »
Also, the rules for Will Points only allow so much.

Turn a crit failure into a failure.
Switch Black and Red Dice.
Turn a success into a crit success.

The off chance you roll a crit fail on an infection check, spend a will to turn it into a normal failure, only to realize switching the black and red doesn't matter... Because they are the same and would become a crit fail again. Or worse, nothing changes.

Before you ask, yes I am a nice Market. I don't allow people to break the rules, but I give them take backs on stupid things.

"You've been bitten by the Vector seconds before your team killed it. Do you wanna use your BTU?"
"Yes. B7/R7 Crit Fail."
"You feel the blight crawling under your skin-"
"I use a Will to upgrade it"
"...okay. You start to bleed black from your eyes, screaming to your teammates to run, and apologizing as you dash for-"
"I use another Will!"
"Okay, so you flip the red and black dice on your infection check. That makes it B7+2/R7. Two sevens is a crit fail, so you begin going latent."
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General Discussion / Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Last post by Dadalos on May 21, 2019, 01:07:25 AM »
Remember there are downsides to being immune.

An Immune's body (in full condition) is worth 350 bounty. You are the largest jackpot in the Loss right now.

I feel that to often this gets over looked as are most 'background' details in rpgs, players take immune and now they are 'immune' to everything, talk about being immune with everyone they meet. collect bounty by digging through blight like its some guts trick from the walking dead... but never considering how many problems being immune can bring - its what makes beign a latent a justifiably better option in my opinion. also yea, there are more things out in the world that can still kill an immune ever heard of the common flu? XD

What about how if a mob is too big, it can drag you down and then eat you? The dead don't care if you are immune, you taste the same.

this is actualy how my last solo run avatar whent out, after completing 3 contracts on his own I rolled up the encounters and whent on my final job, started off well enough my fixer got me solid pay and even got me a medkit (gift spot), first leg whent alright picked up a pair of rifles out of an abandoned apc used my armorer skills to repair them scavanged enough ammo for a full load - split it 50-50 , eggs&baskets and all that / second had me take a landmine (shattered my bike i had just bought and took all the medkit to keep me patched up after fighting off the mobs attracted by said landmine) / third had me go into an office building to retrieve the HD from some executives pc, dident get past the lobby. 2 vectors at point blank after going in. emptied my guns managed to kill one before it did anything to me, droped the empty rifle kicked into the second rifle, got tore up very badly, managed to kill the second, and bled to death (out of will and failed 2 med checks back to back to stop the bleeding) after updating my voice log on my headset audio log. would have been ok if id still had the med kit but the land mine and mobs literally ate all the charges.

also theres no reason you couldn't blood test yourself with out the chance of infection if you have the upgraded blood test kits, on this particular char my first investment was a gen 2 blood test kit.
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