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91
General Discussion / Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Last post by Khargan on May 24, 2019, 09:38:08 AM »
Option B/ I CAN DO IT ON MY OWN!
Best case scenario: Make a succesful attack (reducing mob by 1 or more) and succesful Athletics check to move SPD away.
Worst case scenario: Attack fails, Twitch must be used to dodge with an athletics check. Succes means you do get bit by the mob BUT stay in place, failure means you get damaged.

1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?
Missed attacks do not lead to damage. You must fail a dodge (Athletics roll eating rations and Twitch) to get damaged.

I wasn't saying that the missed attack lead to damage, but that it lead to an attack from the mob, which means the taker automatically had to use twitch in order to dodge it. I was thinking that there might be a situation where a taker's twitch was expended before his own initiative, which would mean failing an attack would lead to an automatic succesful hit from the mob. This is, however, a moot point, if one rules that this added risk of attacks only apply when trying to escape, as a taker that already lost his twitch wouldn't even attempt it. Overall, I agree with the idea that the risk associated with the attack only applies when trying to run away.

4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?
I would say it is spent. I think you declare at the start of your turn ( like Full Offense/Defense combat maneuvers) that you are going on full defense and trying to get away from the mob. So your Tactic and Twitch are dedicated to that goal. If the Market called that it was a Task there would be no problem, as a Task consumes both Tactic and Twitch.

Considering that the rules state that it can be rolled as one Task, I think this interpretation makes a lot of sense.
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General Discussion / Re: How many Takers does a mob of casualties attack?
« Last post by Dr_NANO on May 24, 2019, 09:30:52 AM »
If you read on from "The next round starts with the mob down to 5 zombies, one turn away (5M/1S)" it goes like this:
Teapot declares full offense and attacks but misses.
Kill hits with her attack, and sprays reducing the mob to B3/R1.
Teapot gets to attack with his twitch because of full offense at the end of the round but before casualties (as casualties are always after humans/Vectors), and kill two reducing the mob to B1/R1.
Then the mob  bites Teapot in the thigh.

So they act at the end of round 2.





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General Discussion / Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Last post by Dr_NANO on May 24, 2019, 09:14:46 AM »
This part of the rules actually makes okay sense, at least when you have heard a bit of actual play Podcasts. It breaks down like this.

option A/RUN AWAY!
According to Market use Tactic and Twitch to roll two Athletics to move SPD away. Or Market can make it a Task (consuming Tactic + Twitch) to roll a Athletics check to move SPD away, if he wants failure to be less likely,costly and minimize dice rolling for the Taker. Note that there is no attack on failed Athletics checks but you have wasted rations and are still in the grip of the mob, so you will be attacked at the end of the round.

Then comes the more risky options, as the book says: Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape.

Option B/ I CAN DO IT ON MY OWN!
Best case scenario: Make a succesful attack (reducing mob by 1 or more) and succesful Athletics check to move SPD away.
Worst case scenario: Attack fails, Twitch must be used to dodge with an athletics check. Succes means you do get bit by the mob BUT stay in place, failure means you get damaged.

Option C/WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MY FRIENDS I CAN SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE AFTER I RUN AWAY:
Assumes: Someone before your initiative has reduced Mass by one or more this round either by joining you at Shamble 1 or shooting into melee.'
The checks works similar to option B but the other Taker has freed up your attack action, so you can use your twich first, to roll Atheltics to move SPD away on a succes. On failure you get damaged and stay in place. But you can try again with your Tactic.
If you succed however with your Twitch you can use your Tactic to attack the mob with a ranged/reach weapon.
-->So only chose Option C if you absolutely need to attack the mob otherwise take the safer option A.

Option D/KILL THEM ALL!
You have killed them all. You are safe for now. But what was the cost?

To answer your questions:

1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?
Missed attacks do not lead to damage. You must fail a dodge (Athletics roll eating rations and Twitch) to get damaged.

2. If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?
Yes, I would say so. From option B I think we can be quite certain failed Athletics rolls (dodge) leads to getting damaged. And yes, you can get damaged twice if you fail both Atheltics checks to run away.

3. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures?
  Yes it does. Option A is the safest thing you can do in the short term. As the text mentions:" Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape." Only use option B if you are alone or option C if you are not alone.

4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?
I would say it is spent. I think you declare at the start of your turn ( like Full Offense/Defense combat maneuvers) that you are going on full defense and trying to get away from the mob. So your Tactic and Twitch are dedicated to that goal. If the Market called that it was a Task there would be no problem, as a Task consumes both Tactic and Twitch.



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General Discussion / Re: How many Takers does a mob of casualties attack?
« Last post by Khargan on May 24, 2019, 09:09:17 AM »
However I do think you are mistaken about when Mobs attack. P. 297 specifies that if R3 is rolled, casualties will attack at the end of round 3 (if the Takers have not moved away or killed all casualties).

See page 297, at the top: With shambles 3, a mob will attack at the end of third round. Round 1: Move to shambles 2. Round 2: Move to shambles 1. Round 3: Attack.

We both refer to the same explanation, and as such I am not entirely sure what you mean by me being mistaken about when mobs attack. My short added event tracker shows that the mob does not attack the same round it moves into shambles 1 range, which is contrary to the idea that they attack as soon as they reach shambles 1.

What I meant by "the example also supports this" was not that it is the same number of shambles (3 versus 2), but that it demonstrates that the mob doesn't attack immediately when entering range Shambles 1. The attack happens the following round. Take note of this sentence from the example, after the first round has concluded: "The next round starts with the mob down to 5 zombies, one turn away (5M/1S)". The mob reached shambles 1 at the end of round 1, but didn't attack. The attack will happen at the end of round 2.
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General Discussion / Re: How many Takers does a mob of casualties attack?
« Last post by Dr_NANO on May 24, 2019, 08:15:34 AM »
I was sure I read that mobs could split their attacks somewhere! I think it was a bit weird that for example 10 casualties would absolutely maim/kill (+9 to damage) one Taker/round instead of attacking all avalaible meat.

However I do think you are mistaken about when Mobs attack. P. 297 specifies that if R3 is rolled, casualties will attack at the end of round 3 (if the Takers have not moved away or killed all casualties).

In the example on p 300 B7R2 is rolled and so Teapot gets to act two times before the casualty mob reaches him and bites him in the thigh. You might have misread, R2 is rolled, not R3.
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General Discussion / Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Last post by Khargan on May 24, 2019, 08:07:05 AM »
1. I think not for the same reason that in games like dnd that have the atk of opportunity a missed attack wont trigger an miss because you are still engaged with the combatant, trying to leave without 'disengaging' is what triggers the atk on a miss.
2. same rules apply, even with the reduction you failed to flee, granted the reduction still helps but as long as theres at least 1 mass to make the atk...
3. in dnd terms option 'a' is a full action disengage action. your spending your turns actions to move away (and if im not mistaken rations are still used on athletics so thats another cost) and for that cost you are rewarded with not getting hit...provided you actually get away...
4. so full defense gives you 2 twitches to work with but eats the initial tactic, so unless I re-read the sections involved my gut reaction would be that yes, provided you declared full defense to gain the 2nd twitch failing the first would still leave the other free.

I would tend to interpret the rules in the same way, except for a little trivial point under number 4: When the book says "full defense" in option a, it appears that it is not referring the combat maneuver, since that would leave the taker with 2 twitch actions. Option a specifically says that the taker uses both a tactic and a twitch. I think "full defense" in this context is that it is the most defensive way of trying to move away from a casualty mob.

As for number one, this has the crucial implication that takers in melee with a mob of casualties have to state whether or not they are trying to flee before they make an attack, as an attack of opportunity on a failed hit makes a ton of difference. I think this is rather important and easy to overlook when reading the rules.
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General Discussion / Re: Quick-Start Takers
« Last post by LordSkys on May 24, 2019, 03:42:24 AM »
Lawyer: Before the Crash you fought in the courtroom. You used references, pulled favors, and caught your opponents off guard at the most opportune times. Now your skills are best served gaining contracts for your crew.
Potentials: CHA +1, WILL +1.
Skills: Deception 1, Sensitivity 1, Leadership 1, Persuasion 1, Self-Control 1.
Gear: Backpack, Rations, Laptop, Club, Handgun, 4 bounty.

IT Worker: There was nowhere you couldn't outsource to when the world ended. Luckily, they still needed people on site.
Potentials: INT +1, CHA +1.
Skills: Networking 1, Foresight 1, Profession (Tech Support) 1, Research 1, Deception 1
Gear: Backpack, Rations, Ubiq Specs, Laptop, 5 bounty.

All In: You blew your cash on this, better hope you don't need it.
Potentials: ADP +1, SPD + 1
Skills: Scavenge 1, Athletics 1, Awareness 1, Stealth 1, Criminality 1.
Gear: Backpack, Rations, StopLoss Healthcare, 0 bounty. (Allowed to turn one free upgrade into a 1 bounty item)
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General Discussion / Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Last post by Dadalos on May 24, 2019, 02:35:25 AM »
1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?

2. If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?

3. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures?
4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?

1. I think not for the same reason that in games like dnd that have the atk of opportunity a missed attack wont trigger an miss because you are still engaged with the combatant, trying to leave without 'disengaging' is what triggers the atk on a miss.
2. same rules apply, even with the reduction you failed to flee, granted the reduction still helps but as long as theres at least 1 mass to make the atk...
3. in dnd terms option 'a' is a full action disengage action. your spending your turns actions to move away (and if im not mistaken rations are still used on athletics so thats another cost) and for that cost you are rewarded with not getting hit...provided you actually get away...
4. so full defense gives you 2 twitches to work with but eats the initial tactic, so unless I re-read the sections involved my gut reaction would be that yes, provided you declared full defense to gain the 2nd twitch failing the first would still leave the other free.
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General Discussion / Re: How many Takers does a mob of casualties attack?
« Last post by Dadalos on May 24, 2019, 01:30:41 AM »
As far as casualties go, I remind players that they get only one action each round, so if they moved this round they don't get to attack until next round.

This is super important (And something we admittedly missed in our first run through) otherwise you have the endless kite where in  C's become less of a threat then they are meant to be. the one sticking point is still adjudicating when there's no more room to run  ;).
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General Discussion / Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Last post by Khargan on May 23, 2019, 11:36:13 PM »
I was studying the rules of Frenzy for casualty mobs, and things started to get confusing.

To escape a mob you have a couple of options. Let's look at some of them:
Option b, reducing the mob's mass by 1 and trying to escape, involves firstly, a tactics check. It clearly states:  "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.". Alright, this is what most systems would call "an attack of opportunity", as I see nothing to indicate that the mob doesn't get its regular attack at the end of the round. (The start of the example talking about having dodged the attack for this round seems to merely refer to avoiding the end-of-round mob attack). Now, this raises an important question: Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?

Still with regards to option b the book states that even succeeding the attack but then failing the twitch leads to an attack of opportunity. Alright, cool, that's clear, but then what about option c? If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?

This all leads back to option a, being wholly defensive, where you can escape the mob by rolling two athletics rolls (or one single task roll). In this part of the explanation, no mention of incurring attacks from the mob is mentioned. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures? On a related note, using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?

Four question boys, I hope you have some insight you can share with me on this one, because I'm a little baffled.
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