Author Topic: Markets Beware: Vehicles Ranked (Optimization for List for Vehicles)  (Read 309 times)

LordSkys

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Looking over the RM gear lists, I got interested in vehicles.

I decided to rank them. For the calculations, I used a ratio of haul times ten (average bounty per haul) vs fuel demand times ten (full number of charges) plus upkeep. I called this the Profit Vs Loss ratio of each vehicle.

Haul * 10 : (Fuel Demand * 10) + Upkeep
H*10 : (Fd*10)+U

Here is how it worked out

Place Vehicle   Ratio
Flatbed / Commercial   2.6666 : 1
Semi / APC   2.5454 : 1
ATV   2.1739 : 1
Car / Jeep   2.1212 : 1
SUV / Truck   2.045 : 1
Motorcycle   1.3636 : 1

Since all vehicles are effected the same by each upgrade, the ratios change, but the rankings don't.

Only two upgrades have a chance of raising Profit or lowering Loss for this ratio, because the others are not quantifiable to their benefits for such calculation, since each market makes different scenarios.

The two are:
Alternative Fuel, which lowers Fd by 1
Optimized Load, which increases H by 2 and Fd by 1

The best upgrade / vehicle combo is:
Flatbed w/ Alternative Fuel and no other upgrades.
It gives a ratio of 120 : 35, or 3.4285 : 1.
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Dadalos

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I would be interested in seeing your break-down of the humble Bicycle. it would seem that any time Ive looked into it the thing is a rather good value.

it might also be worth while to give the cost of not having any transport and track 'foot-power' as a comparative baseline.

have to say I was rather surprised that the Flatbed and APC beat out the ATV. will definitely have to look at those a bit more closely in the future.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

LordSkys

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The bicycle is probably gonna land somewhere between the motorcycle and the SUV. I'll do the actual calculations tomorrow. The thing with bikes is that as gear, they will have a different breakdown compared to vehicles.

I'll find a fair formula for Gear to Vehicle conversion rates if I do the bike. Although I could make fuel demand equal to that of rations, which would just make the cost side of the ratio upkeep+1.

Of course, you also factor in the fact that each taker plus their haul is equal to one vehicle haul, and that the bike can only carry one taker haul, the bike gives the movement advantages of a vehicle without the Profit vs Loss Ratio of vehicles. Like I said, Gear and Vehicles don't compare well.

You should also remember that no job should realistically be more than 5 legs away (and even 5 leg jobs are rare), and that a vehicle that hauls more generally costs more in fuel, and the size of a given crew directly effects how much the vehicle can actually carry, and not all scores / jobs will completely fill all available haul, and that certain gear can increase the amount of haul a taker holds even though the taker will still only be one vehicle haul; these things can effect the best vehicle for your crew.

The Profit vs. Loss system is really just a stepping off point for your vehicle needs. On a purely vehicle full of haul vs cost of the vehicle front, the Profit vs Loss system works well though. If you take the exact same crew of 3 Takers for each of the ratios, the Flatbed is still the best on a purely Haul vs Cost front, since you are multiplying everything by the same variable. But a different vehicle may be better if the crew is smaller, and thus makes less off of jobs; or optimized may pay off for a giant fuck off army crew of 14 people.

Hell, at that rate, a sixteen Taker crew with an APC w/ Optimized Load and Alternative Fuel may make more in net profit than a fourteen man Crew with a similar flatbed (which as a side note, a flatbed with just Optimized Load has the exact ratio of a plain semi)

Once again I am rambling, but I'll get the calcs tomorrow.
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LordSkys

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The bicycle gives the mechanical benefits of a vehicle when it comes to moving Takers from point A to point B, without the expanded cargo space which makes vehicles more expensive.

We'll use rations as fuel, putting each charge of a ration the equivalent of a charge of fuel on a vehicle. A bicycle can carry one vehicle haul (the Taker) and has an upkeep of two bounty.

Because a whole ration is ten charges for one bounty, each charge is worth 1/10th a bounty, or .1 bounty per charge.

H*10 : (Fd*10)+U
1*10 :  (.1*10) + 2
10 : 1 + 2
10 : 3
3.3333 : 1

From a purely profit vs. loss on a full bicycle, the plain bicycle blows everything out of the water except a Flatbed w/ Alternative Fuel.

Hot damn.

If you give the bike the Saddlebags upgrade the ratio jumps to an overwhelming 6.6666 : 1 ratio.

Except, there is a catch.

Each taker needs their own bike.

Using the example of a 3 Taker crew, that turns it into this:

H*10 : (Fd*10)+U
3*10 : (.3*10)+6
30 : 3+6
30 : 9
10 : 3

Goddamn it I'm an idiot.

So yeah, bikes are great for the pocketbook, especially when compared to the other vehicles. Bigger vehicles will give you more actual bounty, but from an investment return standpoint, go for the bicycle.

As a Taker crew though, also remember the narrative, contextual, and mechanical benefits a vehicle gives. Those rations can be used in combat, that extra haul means more bounty, and you have to succeed on an athletics check to skip legs.
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Dadalos

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So yeah, bikes are great for the pocketbook, especially when compared to the other vehicles. Bigger vehicles will give you more actual bounty, but from an investment return standpoint, go for the bicycle.

Thank you for running the numbers, Its funny to see that my players tended to gravitate to this option over atvs and the arguable cooler investments for larger hauls, and it turns out they 'invested' well. especially since they all went for saddlebags and I had a "px90" latent who convinced me to let him pull a 'sidecar upgrade' from the motorbike as a rickshaw setup.and that was so much fun especially on the leg where they picked up the stray dog, the sidecar became 'his' seat.  8)

PS: if you are so inclined I wouldent mind seeing a similar breakdown of other gear done in this style. I have run a long number of solo games trying out various gear load outs and deep testing various rules focuses. however I have only gotten kind of gut feeling in regards to several items and seeing cold hard numbers like this makes me mathematically giddy.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:20:47 AM by Dadalos »
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

LordSkys

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I decided to do one more table, taking a Crew of Takers the size of the what the vehicle allows, that rolled standard profit.

Each Taker has a Haul of 3, refresh 1.
Each Crew has 1 dronkey for every 5 takers, rounded up.
Each Dronkey has 5 upkeep, paid before Takers like vehicles.
Each Haul is worth 11 bounty. (B5/R6)
Each vehicle is at best profit vs Loss ratio. (They all have Alternative Fuel only, except for the bike which has any mix of upgrades that includes Saddlebags.)
This is a Score, 3 legs away.
Let's take a look.

Vehicle Ratio Takers Total Haul Gross Bounty Net Bounty Each Taker's Split
Bicycle 6.6666 : 1 1 8 88 81 81
Flatbed/Commercial 3.4285 : 1 12 48 528 496 41.3333
Semi/APC 3.1111: 1 14 54 594 563 40.1428
ATV 3.8461 : 1 5 19   209 198 39.6
Car/Jeep 3.0434 : 1 7 29 319 300 42.85
SUV 2.6471 : 1 9 35 385 362 40.2222
Motorcycle 2.5 : 1 3 13 143 133 44.3333

The bike is a bit misleading though. It doesn't work like other vehicles, and so it really should have it's own table.

To recap:
Each Taker has a Haul of 3, refresh 1.
Each Crew has 1 dronkey for every 5 takers, rounded up.
Each Dronkey has 5 upkeep, paid before Takers like vehicles.
Each Haul is worth 11 bounty. (B5/R6)
Each bike is at best profit vs Loss ratio.
This is a Score, 3 legs away.
The bike's PvL Ratio is 6.6666:1
Let's take a look.

Bikes/Takers Total Haul Gross Bounty Net Bounty Each Taker's Split
   1       8       88       81       81   
   2       12       132       123       61.5   
   3       16       176       165       55   
   4       20       220       207       51.75   
   5       24       264       249       49.8   
   6       32       352       330       55   
   7       36       396       372       53.14285714   
   8       40       440       414       51.75   
   9       44       484       456       50.66666667   
   10       48       528       498       49.8   
   11       56       616       579       52.63636364   
   12       60       660       621       51.75   
   13       64       704       663       51   
   14       68       748       705       50.35714286   
   15       72       792       747       49.8   

Finally, here is the ultimate vehicle line up, where the Taker's split is the ranking system.

   Vehicle      Ratio      Takers      Total Haul      Gross Bounty      Net Bounty      Taker Split   
   Bicycle (1)      6.6666:1      1      8      88      81      81   
   Bicycle (2)      6.6666:1      2      12      132      123      61.5   
   Bicycle (3)      6.6666:1      3      16      176      165      55   
   Bicycle (4)      6.6666:1      4      20      220      207      51.75   
   Bicycle (5)      6.6666:1      5      24      264      249      49.8   
   Motorcycle      2.5:1      3      13      143      133      44.3333   
   Car/Jeep      3.0434:1      7      29      319      300      42.85   
   Flatbed/Commercial      3.4285:1      12      48      528      496      41.3333   
   SUV      2.6471:1      9      35      385      362      40.2222   
   Semi/APC      3.1111:1      14      54      594      563      40.1428   
   ATV      3.8461:1      5      19      209      198      39.6   

The Profit vs Loss system works well for gear, but too many factors play into a real world scenario for it to work reliably on vehicles.

Anyway you cut it, bikes are better for your bottom line.

I would be interested in seeing your break-down of the humble Bicycle. it would seem that any time Ive looked into it the thing is a rather good value.

it might also be worth while to give the cost of not having any transport and track 'foot-power' as a comparative baseline.

have to say I was rather surprised that the Flatbed and APC beat out the ATV. will definitely have to look at those a bit more closely in the future.

Also, yeah Dadalos, you were right. The ATV with Alternative Fuel is better than the Flatbed with the same upgrade. Just a reminder to myself to always check the math.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 04:01:00 AM by LordSkys »
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

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LordSkys

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To find a vehicle's effect on any given score do the following:

Ht = Haul Carried by All Takers
Fd = Fuel Demand
L = Legs
Hv = Vehicle Haul Used for Haul
T = Takers in Vehicle
U = Vehicle Upkeep
B = Bounty per Haul
N = Net Pay
T = Takers
Sh = Each Taker's Share

((Hv+Ht)*B)-((Fd*L)+U)=N

N/T=Sh

So let's say a crew of four has a plain ATV. They go out on a score 4 legs away, roll B7/R2 for bounty per haul, and split the pay evenly after paying off the ATV.

The Takers collect enough haul to fill all 9 haul available in their back packs, plus one more for the ATV.

((Hv+Ht)*B)-((Fd*L)+U)=N
((1+9)*9)-((2*4)+3)=N
(10*9)-(8+3)=N
90-11= N
79=N

N/T=Sh
79/4=Sh
19.75=Sh

19 Bounty each, with 3 left over in the pot. If they had walked, they would have only made the following:

(Ht*B)/T=Sh
(9*9)/4=Sh
81/4=Sh
20.25=Sh

Each Taker would make 20 bounty, with 1 left over...
Huh. Damn.

Ummm, roll high on a score or don't use a vehicle.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

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LordSkys

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I have taken everything here and put it on a Google Sheets.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_HTsUQQ6o3Qeu3-UACKZS9iLbng494nf00xfsq9OM4/edit?usp=drivesdk

It automatically does calculations for scores that use Haul, both with and without vehicles.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

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Dadalos

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Each Taker would make 20 bounty, with 1 left over...
Huh. Damn.

Ummm, roll high on a score or don't use a vehicle.

I think thats the idea with or without a vehicle.  :D . I want to say thank you for doing and sharing all this. its a fascinating read for one such as myself who loves this kind of breakdown. I might have to Z-space run a solo game with a crew for a while and see how things pan out over a longer adventure, wither it matches the math in theory in active practice XD.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

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This is awesome work.

I'd add that getting a big vehicle like a flatbed or a semi should rightfully transform the nature of the whole campaign. If you're "the guys with the truck," that's going to be your specialty for the enclave you're a part of. You can do jobs of a type and scale that nobody else can do.

If you're running the Market for a crew like that, just make sure that the risk lines up with the reward. A truck is a big asset -- but it's also fragile, vulnerable to mechanical failures, road and weather conditions, and theft. Don't be afraid to throw these challenges at your players. Make them work for the payoff that using a vehicle represents.
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Dadalos

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Re: Markets Beware: Vehicles Ranked (Optimization for List for Vehicles)
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2019, 11:06:46 PM »
I'd add that getting a big vehicle like a flatbed or a semi should rightfully transform the nature of the whole campaign. If you're "the guys with the truck," that's going to be your specialty for the enclave you're a part of. You can do jobs of a type and scale that nobody else can do.

thats something I feel is probably overlooked, in most scores or jobs in general all 'haul' breaks down to:
A: carries 2
B: carries 2
C: carries 1

but not all haul can break down like this some things have to be you move 5 indivisible Haul. so even if everyone in the crew had an amped up atv, your not moving that 6 haul block of loot without a truck. something to consider at least.

I might have to figure out some kind of portable crane or at the very least a portable block and tackle sytem for things you couldn't just manpower onto a truck. might make for a good side job towing in massive haul items wholesale.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:08:45 PM by Dadalos »
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."