Author Topic: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?  (Read 1386 times)

Dr_NANO

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« on: May 19, 2019, 11:45:53 AM »
My friends and I are reading through the rules, and there seems to be some errors in the rulebook regarding the Spray upgrade.

On p. 287 under Spray it states that on a succesful attack you can burn three charges for a free attack. No mention of twitch here.

On p. 491 in the summary of special maneuvers it states the same as above, but you need to use a Twitch to use Spray.

On p. 300 Teapot spends Twitch to spray. But then on p. 301 Teapot use Full Offense (using his twitch) and when his second attack hits he uses Spray, even though he does not have any Twitch left?

So the rules have text that does not mention using twitch and some mentioning using twitch. Which one is correct? (and which one is a typo?)

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 01:24:08 PM »
So, it looks like Teapot spending his twitch was unnecessary, after reading and rereading the entry. BUT when looking at the Combat summary list at the end of the book, and rereading what twitch requires, it starts to make sense.

So since Teapot has full offense, his second twitch is an attack. Because he is attacking the same target, and has used full offense, he only needs to spend 3 charges for spray. Since the twitch is part of attacking, it is part of the spray.

If he was attacking a different target using full offense, he would have to roll again.

If he wasn't on full offense, he would have to spend his twitch and the charges.

Because he was on full offense, the twitch IS that second attack, and thus he just spends extra charges to hit more of the same mass.

Since full offense must be declared at the beginning of your turn, you must make a second attack. If you just did normal attack you could roll, and then decide if you want to spend your twitch for more damage/hits, or leave it for if the Market attacks you.

Hope that clears it up
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dr_NANO

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 01:37:19 PM »
From my understanding the math does not match up.

You have a Tactic and a Twitch in a round. It means basically you can do two things in a round.

You use Full offense to convert a Twitch to a Tactic. You now have two Tactics.

As Teapots first Tactic he fires and does not hit. Then at the end of the round (but before the casualties) he uses his Second Tactic to fire again and hits. Then he declares he will use Spray, but at this point he has no more Twitches.

If Spray requires a Twitch to use as it says on p 491, he is not allowed to Spray.

@LordSkys do you agree?

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 01:42:07 PM »
From my understanding the math does not match up.

You have a Tactic and a Twitch in a round. It means basically you can do two things in a round.

You use Full offense to convert a Twitch to a Tactic. You now have two Tactics.

As Teapots first Tactic he fires and does not hit. Then at the end of the round (but before the casualties) he uses his Second Tactic to fire again and hits. Then he declares he will use Spray, but at this point he has no more Twitches.

If Spray requires a Twitch to use as it says on p 491, he is not allowed to Spray.

@LordSkys do you agree?

I guess.

When in doubt, use the Combat Summary Sheet. In the end Rule of Cool is King.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 12:25:27 AM »
I think this boils down to general vs specifics situations in writing. for instance the summary on 'spray' on 491 also dosent address "Against humans, the second attack only lands on a Precision check and uses the damage of that second dice check. Against casualties and Vectors, the second attack hits automatically." but i think thats because its a quick reference and dosent cover the entirety of the rule leaving additional for the original positing.

Full offense gives you a second attack action, where as Spray seems to trigger a second instance of dmg not a second attack, but requires the first to be a success and for you to burn the extra charges.

I am of the option that spray is a sub-type of Full offense, but faster as it would allow an automatic 'hit' without making the second attack by spending the charges and your twitch but dosent wait for you to move to the end of the initiative like Full offense. the spray reflecting a single Full auto burst instead of something like a 3 round burst where you 'reset' before the next shot.

In summary:Both Full offense and Spray take the Twitch but use it differently.
+ spray takes the extra ammo charges. (is limited to weapons with the spray property.)
+Full offense requires another successful atk roll. -however FO isnt limited to weapon type.

~in the case of teapot: (something to remember is that story sections like this are anecdotal to begin with and so may or may not contain conflicting information inherently.)
1. I see no incongruities in the first section (other then the player should have been the one to bring up the upgraded property of the weapon but assuming its a nice Market who was reminding a newer player of an option they might not have otherwise realized they could do), they spent their initial tactic to make the first attack and succeeded in hitting and converts the twitch to auto hit again (notice no second atk roll), fulfilling the requirements mentioned on the 491 page. (they go on to reference his first atk in the FO turn where he misses and requests to spray but cant as it requires a success)
2. (the section on 301 specifically that your referring to at) In the second section they come again to their turn and notice where there is mention of them fulfilling their second FO atk, the sticking point being that they then go on to say he triggers spray (wich as you say should have already been eaten to preform the FO in the first place) and i can only rationalize this one of two ways :
 2a. By saying that since this was his second atk and was his twitch action the market ruled that both uses of twitch activated with the one twitch payment (IE you would have refreshed the twitch needed in this second 'atk action' to use the twitch required to spray provided you meet the other requirements.)
 2b. the Market was being nice and let this one rule slide past as the players were in a tough spot and hes called them out on every other use of the rules (such as the request to spray into melee just a few lines before this- being a precision shot) up until this point.

TLDR : I think its a case where the 287+301 needs to be updated with a better worded version that was used on 491. The game was developed and play-tested and reiterated (Ie written and rewritten) several times over and things like this can be overlooked when updating one rule after play-testing. you'll notice that the maneuvers page 491 was probably worded last and the two prior examples were probably earlier versions of those rules that wernt updated as the wording was so similar already, figuring most people would take the latest example as a kind of self referencing errata.

thank you for bringing this up though, It was a wonderful puzzle to work out on my lunch break XD. and if I have it wrong id like to hear about it as I am one of those ppl who would rather have things be correct then to be happy with something wrong.

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Dr_NANO

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 08:24:03 AM »
@Dadalos nice to see you also got to the same conclusion.

When we start playing next week I am going to play that Spray requires a Twitch, and see how it works out in real play. So you can not do a full offense AND spray on any of the Tactics. Teapot would probably have died if they played it this way ;)

It makes going action hero shooty a bit more dangerous though so the Takers has to consider it carefully.

Khargan

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 10:45:16 AM »
I think it is obvious that the two versions of Spray presented by the combat summary and page 287 are irreconcilable. The former clearly states it costs a twitch and three charges to activate spray, and the latter only requires spending three charges for a free attack. Thus, as most of you surmise, two versions have existed through development of the system, and remnants of both remain in the rule book. Going by the rules and examples, both seem likely candidates to have been the intended version. I favor the interpretation that page 287 is the correct one since it's the most fleshed out of the two.

However, what's more important is to consider the merits of the two versions, both thematically and mechanically.

Thematically
Requiring a twitch action to spray completely negates the theme of a weapon being able to spray out a lot of bullets, as even a lowly hand gun can make the same number of attacks as an LMG per round in this variant, that number of attacks being 2 for both weapons. The effect, when it requires a twitch, has very little to do with the idea of "spraying", but is more akin to a "quick shot", as it allows the second possible attack to be performed on the same initiative. I think that for this reason alone Spray shouldn't require a twitch to perform, but only the three charges (a large price already), as this conform to how Rifles and LMGs should work thematically: By spending tons of charges and going all out, they can deliver 4 attacks in a single round, as opposed to only 2 by the less potent weapons such as the hand gun or the slowly firing heavy rifle.

Mechanically
Spray requires a Twitch: In this version, spending three charges and a twitch accomplishes up to two things -
1. The second attack is done on your own initiative, and your don't have to declare Full Offensive before you start shooting. This benefit is situational, as it requires a combat scenario where the difference in initiative matters, which against stuff like casualties often won't be the case.
2. When not changing target (against humans), you get another automatic hit. This is arguably the main benefit of Spray, and even paying the extra twitch for it might be fine, but consider this: Without spray, you could spend those three charges (all spray weapons are charged) and get a +2 attack with your twitch. However, against humans, the upgrade in this version is actually silly when you change target: You have to roll to hit again for the second attack. In this case, it would probably often be better to just use 1 charge for a second attack on a later initiative, instead of using 3 charges.

By requiring a twitch to spray, it makes the hand gun almost as powerful as a rifle, despite the rifle costing more, requiring two hands (a major cost) and having extra upkeep. The costs of using these two weapons are vastly different, but in this version, both can lay down the same amount of fire power, the rifle just avoids splitting the attacks up initiative-wise. Yes, the spray on the rifle might grant a sure hit for 3 charges and a twitch, but that is not much different to just using 3 charges for 3 extra damage using the hand gun's automatic quality. Thus, even on the mechanical side of things I would argue for Spray not requiring a Twitch.

To surmise, I think that Spray not requiring a twitch action to activate is both mechanically and thematically the superior version.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:54:07 AM by Khargan »

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 01:07:13 PM »
I think it is obvious that the two versions of Spray presented by the combat summary and page 287 are irreconcilable. The former clearly states it costs a twitch and three charges to activate spray, and the latter only requires spending three charges for a free attack. Thus, as most of you surmise, two versions have existed through development of the system, and remnants of both remain in the rule book. Going by the rules and examples, both seem likely candidates to have been the intended version. I favor the interpretation that page 287 is the correct one since it's the most fleshed out of the two.

However, what's more important is to consider the merits of the two versions, both thematically and mechanically.

Thematically
Requiring a twitch action to spray completely negates the theme of a weapon being able to spray out a lot of bullets, as even a lowly hand gun can make the same number of attacks as an LMG per round in this variant, that number of attacks being 2 for both weapons. The effect, when it requires a twitch, has very little to do with the idea of "spraying", but is more akin to a "quick shot", as it allows the second possible attack to be performed on the same initiative. I think that for this reason alone Spray shouldn't require a twitch to perform, but only the three charges (a large price already), as this conform to how Rifles and LMGs should work thematically: By spending tons of charges and going all out, they can deliver 4 attacks in a single round, as opposed to only 2 by the less potent weapons such as the hand gun or the slowly firing heavy rifle.

Mechanically
Spray requires a Twitch: In this version, spending three charges and a twitch accomplishes up to two things -
1. The second attack is done on your own initiative, and your don't have to declare Full Offensive before you start shooting. This benefit is situational, as it requires a combat scenario where the difference in initiative matters, which against stuff like casualties often won't be the case.
2. When not changing target (against humans), you get another automatic hit. This is arguably the main benefit of Spray, and even paying the extra twitch for it might be fine, but consider this: Without spray, you could spend those three charges (all spray weapons are charged) and get a +2 attack with your twitch. However, against humans, the upgrade in this version is actually silly when you change target: You have to roll to hit again for the second attack. In this case, it would probably often be better to just use 1 charge for a second attack on a later initiative, instead of using 3 charges.

By requiring a twitch to spray, it makes the hand gun almost as powerful as a rifle, despite the rifle costing more, requiring two hands (a major cost) and having extra upkeep. The costs of using these two weapons are vastly different, but in this version, both can lay down the same amount of fire power, the rifle just avoids splitting the attacks up initiative-wise. Yes, the spray on the rifle might grant a sure hit for 3 charges and a twitch, but that is not much different to just using 3 charges for 3 extra damage using the hand gun's automatic quality. Thus, even on the mechanical side of things I would argue for Spray not requiring a Twitch.

To surmise, I think that Spray not requiring a twitch action to activate is both mechanically and thematically the superior version.


I know I've been back and forth on the issue, but you put it best Khargan.

+1 bounty.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

MauveHand

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • US Taker
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 12:55:59 PM »
Remember that the overall theme of Red Markets is that everything has a cost associated with it.  Allow me a moment to explain the Spray cost as I see it?

To activate the spray ability, you have to burn 40% of an item's overall usability.  That's one charge for the initial shot (which has to hit) and then after the successful shot lands you use three more charges.  This means you can effectively use Spray twice per reload, at most. 

In contrast, full offense can be used any time you choose to switch out the twitch and generally only costs one extra charge. 

So I'm more inclined to allow Spray without the cost of the twitch.  But then, I'm usually the Market and it behooves me to encourage my Takers to burn through their resources faster than they normally would. 

"Can I spray three additional targets at once?"
"Yep.  That'll leave you with an empty weapon because it'll take all ten charges to do that."

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Does Spray take a twitch action or not?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 10:52:56 PM »
Remember that the overall theme of Red Markets is that everything has a cost associated with it.  Allow me a moment to explain the Spray cost as I see it?

To activate the spray ability, you have to burn 40% of an item's overall usability.  That's one charge for the initial shot (which has to hit) and then after the successful shot lands you use three more charges.  This means you can effectively use Spray twice per reload, at most. 

In contrast, full offense can be used any time you choose to switch out the twitch and generally only costs one extra charge. 

So I'm more inclined to allow Spray without the cost of the twitch.  But then, I'm usually the Market and it behooves me to encourage my Takers to burn through their resources faster than they normally would. 

"Can I spray three additional targets at once?"
"Yep.  That'll leave you with an empty weapon because it'll take all ten charges to do that."

+1 bounty, thats another reason I absolutely love the concept of boom and bust rules. my play group in particular use a mix and match of each to fulfill that flavor were looking for in particular areas of game-play. to me the final interpretation SHOULD lie with the individual group to fit their needs... so long as the rule is consistently applied.

my previous wall of text was simply me working it out to my own logic and was hoping it might help someone else figure out what direction they would lean.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."