Author Topic: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?  (Read 3021 times)

Dr_NANO

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« on: May 19, 2019, 06:38:26 PM »
As my players and I are preparing for our campaign start next week a flurry of questions has come in. The latest is the Riot Shield.

It has the armored quality so it can absorb damage from all hit locations (except head) for a charge.

So  it can basically remove 10 hits from casualty/vector combat. Thats seems reeeeeeeally good!

It costs 8 Bounty so it is pretty expensive though. And with a helmet you have reduced your risk a lot for going into combat for 10 bounty.

What is your experiences from play? Is it too good?

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 06:59:20 PM »
It seems really good at first, but so is most armor. Armor is expensive, and once you use it you can't get the charges back.

10 hits can go in one game, and 8 bounty is a pretty penny to pay each game.

Most players don't end up blocking unless they think they're screwed, and players can easily get cocky; so it usually works out.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Gorkamorka

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 07:47:32 PM »
Plus you can't really sneek with one.
Fridrik

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 08:20:52 PM »
Plus you can't really sneek with one.
Yeah. They protect everything because they are in the way of everything.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 12:40:11 AM »
It seems really good at first, but so is most armor. Armor is expensive, and once you use it you can't get the charges back.

10 hits can go in one game, and 8 bounty is a pretty penny to pay each game.

Most players don't end up blocking unless they think they're screwed, and players can easily get cocky; so it usually works out.

10 hits can go in one combat if your me, was wanting to test out the spear and  shield approach to things and see how far i could get soloing. and well the shield did soak some fairly scary things from me, ive found that its better to not get hit then to be able to take a hit, It shines best when your able to stop gap a choke point or are in a situation where theres not a load of room to fall back while fighting such as an office building.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Khargan

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2019, 02:49:34 PM »
It's worth breaking both costs and benefits of the riot shield down so it can be properly evaluated.

Costs:
- Requires a hand slot (Sorry Dadalos, but I don't think you can use the spear and the shield at the same time. The spear is implied to be 2-handed, as it's cumbersome)
- Costs 8 bounty each time you go through 10 attacks, and more if you want SWAT quality (which you do).
- Need to spend 2 skill points to have the Melee: Shield specialization (if you didn't have Melee already)
- No Stealth

Benefits:
- Can completely nullify 10 (non-headshot) attacks, which happens when you know the amount of damage incoming and after other forms of mitigation. This is much more powerful than regular armor, which only converts all kill damage to stun or remove 1 stun per charge.
- Can be used to attack and apply knockback

Now, one has to wonder why it works so radically differently compared to normal armor, making it seemingly so strong. I think the answer lies in the greatest cost associated with the shield: The use of a hand slot. When looking at firearms, you are seriously limiting your offensive capabilities if you can only use one-handed guns. The hand-gun fully upgraded is by no means bad, but it cannot hold a candle to an LMG. The difference with melee weapons is less pronounced, but even so a warhammer (two-handed) will still output a good deal more damage than a sword, even with the latter fully upgraded, simply due to the Kill and Stun damage effect. On average, a warhammer (while costing much less) will deal 6 Kill and 5 Stun, while the sword will deal 8 Kill.

Not being able to roll stealth could also be a big downside, though that depends a lot on the specific scenario. It is worth noting that against human market forces, you're still vulnerable to fire and armor-piercing damage, though that is true for most armor. The price, as already mentioned, is definitely not insignificant either.

I am not sure if the riot shield is balanced even with these costs weighing it down, but it's definitely not as powerful as it first might appear.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 02:53:09 PM by Khargan »

Khargan

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2019, 06:31:53 PM »
Oh, and by the way, here is something to get the noggin joggin': The Riot Shield can be used for attacking, but it has neither the Manpower, the Capped nor the Charged quality. Does that mean you can attack with it for free?  8)

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2019, 11:21:39 PM »
Oh, and by the way, here is something to get the noggin joggin': The Riot Shield can be used for attacking, but it has neither the Manpower, the Capped nor the Charged quality. Does that mean you can attack with it for free?  8)

Wait, really? *Checks books*
Eh... Sort of.
Manpower is more of a reminder than a rule. Remember, any strength (+Athletics) skill requires you to burn a ration to make the roll. Manpower just reminds you that you are using a strength skill; generally Melee, which is exactly what the shield uses.

As for capped and charged? I see nothing, which both from the effect and as armor makes sense. You can use it multiple times, but the charges are used protecting you.

As for attacks? No problem
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2019, 11:29:49 PM »
another consideration about stealth is that against C's & V's is that there is no stealth without sent-blocker, so in those cases you cant really count that against the shield, same with the cost of the upgrades to block gunfire as blighted targets dont use those.

As for not being able to use the shield spear combo i never said that part was part of the core game only that I had done it XD, as a nod to historical use. also the cumbersome just states: Cumbersome items are too long, wide, or unwieldy to carry comfortably in a backpack. Basically, cumbersome describes what weapons can’t be quick drawn in combat. while it may be implied to be two handed there's plenty of examples (historically speaking) of people being able to do so...

« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 11:55:34 PM by Dadalos »
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 11:38:28 PM »
another consideration about stealth is that against C's & V's is that there is no stealth without sent-blocker, so in those cases you cant really count that against the shield, same with the cost of the upgrades to block gunfire as blighted targets dont use those.


I mean, silencers do effect casualties and vectors, just not that way. Literally causing Casualties and Vectors to appear is kinda a big thing about noise and Zed's.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 11:46:03 PM »
I mean, silencers do effect casualties and vectors, just not that way. Literally causing Casualties and Vectors to appear is kinda a big thing about noise and Zed's.
True  ;) , however silencers not attracting more mobs from outside the encounter isnt exactly the same as going ninja and slipping past a mob that should otherwise engage you. I was merely pointing out that while the shield might otherwise hinder stealth without sent blocker its not much of a consideration for foes that you have to engage with anyway.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2019, 12:15:00 AM »
I mean, silencers do effect casualties and vectors, just not that way. Literally causing Casualties and Vectors to appear is kinda a big thing about noise and Zed's.
True  ;) , however silencers not attracting more mobs from outside the encounter isnt exactly the same as going ninja and slipping past a mob that should otherwise engage you. I was merely pointing out that while the shield might otherwise hinder stealth without sent blocker its not much of a consideration for foes that you have to engage with anyway.

Yeah, just giving you a hard time.

Sorry mate
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.

Dadalos

  • Ubiq Admin.
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
  • Specializes in logistics and overthinking things.
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2019, 12:23:33 AM »
Yeah, just giving you a hard time.

Sorry mate

None taken, its routine (and encouraged) to form any kind of disagreement between me and my firends on a topic so that we can use what i call the 'forge method' to refine even something that should be a 'gimme' into a more refined and robust concept. an untested and untried concept cant be relied upon by our group until everyone's sure that it will hold up and the only way to do that is challenge it.  ;D . well go round and round poking and prodding something each taking turns playing the devils advocate until were all on the same absolute page and theres nothing that we can see that needs be poked or prodded further. its an oddity of ours but I enjoy it all the same.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Khargan

  • Bait
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 10:36:47 AM »
Oh, and by the way, here is something to get the noggin joggin': The Riot Shield can be used for attacking, but it has neither the Manpower, the Capped nor the Charged quality. Does that mean you can attack with it for free?  8)

Wait, really? *Checks books*
Eh... Sort of.
Manpower is more of a reminder than a rule. Remember, any strength (+Athletics) skill requires you to burn a ration to make the roll. Manpower just reminds you that you are using a strength skill; generally Melee, which is exactly what the shield uses.

As for capped and charged? I see nothing, which both from the effect and as armor makes sense. You can use it multiple times, but the charges are used protecting you.

As for attacks? No problem

I agree with you completely LordSkys, I was just poking fun at the inconsistency of the shield not having the Manpower quality. Written humor is pretty difficult to get across, but I promise I'll try to do better next time.  :P

LordSkys

  • Moth
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions
    • View Profile
Re: Riot Shield maybe a bit too good?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 11:33:18 AM »
Oh, and by the way, here is something to get the noggin joggin': The Riot Shield can be used for attacking, but it has neither the Manpower, the Capped nor the Charged quality. Does that mean you can attack with it for free?  8)

Wait, really? *Checks books*
Eh... Sort of.
Manpower is more of a reminder than a rule. Remember, any strength (+Athletics) skill requires you to burn a ration to make the roll. Manpower just reminds you that you are using a strength skill; generally Melee, which is exactly what the shield uses.

As for capped and charged? I see nothing, which both from the effect and as armor makes sense. You can use it multiple times, but the charges are used protecting you.

As for attacks? No problem

I agree with you completely LordSkys, I was just poking fun at the inconsistency of the shield not having the Manpower quality. Written humor is pretty difficult to get across, but I promise I'll try to do better next time.  :P

No worries ;D

I got the humor, but the entry sent me down a little rabbit hole.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caretaker of Skys Gear Solutions. Custom weapons, tech, and gear at fair wholesale prices.