Author Topic: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?  (Read 4290 times)

Khargan

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Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« on: May 23, 2019, 11:36:13 PM »
I was studying the rules of Frenzy for casualty mobs, and things started to get confusing.

To escape a mob you have a couple of options. Let's look at some of them:
Option b, reducing the mob's mass by 1 and trying to escape, involves firstly, a tactics check. It clearly states:  "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.". Alright, this is what most systems would call "an attack of opportunity", as I see nothing to indicate that the mob doesn't get its regular attack at the end of the round. (The start of the example talking about having dodged the attack for this round seems to merely refer to avoiding the end-of-round mob attack). Now, this raises an important question: Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?

Still with regards to option b the book states that even succeeding the attack but then failing the twitch leads to an attack of opportunity. Alright, cool, that's clear, but then what about option c? If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?

This all leads back to option a, being wholly defensive, where you can escape the mob by rolling two athletics rolls (or one single task roll). In this part of the explanation, no mention of incurring attacks from the mob is mentioned. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures? On a related note, using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?

Four question boys, I hope you have some insight you can share with me on this one, because I'm a little baffled.

Dadalos

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2019, 02:35:25 AM »
1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?

2. If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?

3. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures?
4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?

1. I think not for the same reason that in games like dnd that have the atk of opportunity a missed attack wont trigger an miss because you are still engaged with the combatant, trying to leave without 'disengaging' is what triggers the atk on a miss.
2. same rules apply, even with the reduction you failed to flee, granted the reduction still helps but as long as theres at least 1 mass to make the atk...
3. in dnd terms option 'a' is a full action disengage action. your spending your turns actions to move away (and if im not mistaken rations are still used on athletics so thats another cost) and for that cost you are rewarded with not getting hit...provided you actually get away...
4. so full defense gives you 2 twitches to work with but eats the initial tactic, so unless I re-read the sections involved my gut reaction would be that yes, provided you declared full defense to gain the 2nd twitch failing the first would still leave the other free.
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Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 08:07:05 AM »
1. I think not for the same reason that in games like dnd that have the atk of opportunity a missed attack wont trigger an miss because you are still engaged with the combatant, trying to leave without 'disengaging' is what triggers the atk on a miss.
2. same rules apply, even with the reduction you failed to flee, granted the reduction still helps but as long as theres at least 1 mass to make the atk...
3. in dnd terms option 'a' is a full action disengage action. your spending your turns actions to move away (and if im not mistaken rations are still used on athletics so thats another cost) and for that cost you are rewarded with not getting hit...provided you actually get away...
4. so full defense gives you 2 twitches to work with but eats the initial tactic, so unless I re-read the sections involved my gut reaction would be that yes, provided you declared full defense to gain the 2nd twitch failing the first would still leave the other free.

I would tend to interpret the rules in the same way, except for a little trivial point under number 4: When the book says "full defense" in option a, it appears that it is not referring the combat maneuver, since that would leave the taker with 2 twitch actions. Option a specifically says that the taker uses both a tactic and a twitch. I think "full defense" in this context is that it is the most defensive way of trying to move away from a casualty mob.

As for number one, this has the crucial implication that takers in melee with a mob of casualties have to state whether or not they are trying to flee before they make an attack, as an attack of opportunity on a failed hit makes a ton of difference. I think this is rather important and easy to overlook when reading the rules.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 08:09:11 AM by Khargan »

Dr_NANO

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 09:14:46 AM »
This part of the rules actually makes okay sense, at least when you have heard a bit of actual play Podcasts. It breaks down like this.

option A/RUN AWAY!
According to Market use Tactic and Twitch to roll two Athletics to move SPD away. Or Market can make it a Task (consuming Tactic + Twitch) to roll a Athletics check to move SPD away, if he wants failure to be less likely,costly and minimize dice rolling for the Taker. Note that there is no attack on failed Athletics checks but you have wasted rations and are still in the grip of the mob, so you will be attacked at the end of the round.

Then comes the more risky options, as the book says: Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape.

Option B/ I CAN DO IT ON MY OWN!
Best case scenario: Make a succesful attack (reducing mob by 1 or more) and succesful Athletics check to move SPD away.
Worst case scenario: Attack fails, Twitch must be used to dodge with an athletics check. Succes means you do get bit by the mob BUT stay in place, failure means you get damaged.

Option C/WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MY FRIENDS I CAN SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE AFTER I RUN AWAY:
Assumes: Someone before your initiative has reduced Mass by one or more this round either by joining you at Shamble 1 or shooting into melee.'
The checks works similar to option B but the other Taker has freed up your attack action, so you can use your twich first, to roll Atheltics to move SPD away on a succes. On failure you get damaged and stay in place. But you can try again with your Tactic.
If you succed however with your Twitch you can use your Tactic to attack the mob with a ranged/reach weapon.
-->So only chose Option C if you absolutely need to attack the mob otherwise take the safer option A.

Option D/KILL THEM ALL!
You have killed them all. You are safe for now. But what was the cost?

To answer your questions:

1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?
Missed attacks do not lead to damage. You must fail a dodge (Athletics roll eating rations and Twitch) to get damaged.

2. If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?
Yes, I would say so. From option B I think we can be quite certain failed Athletics rolls (dodge) leads to getting damaged. And yes, you can get damaged twice if you fail both Atheltics checks to run away.

3. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures?
  Yes it does. Option A is the safest thing you can do in the short term. As the text mentions:" Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape." Only use option B if you are alone or option C if you are not alone.

4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?
I would say it is spent. I think you declare at the start of your turn ( like Full Offense/Defense combat maneuvers) that you are going on full defense and trying to get away from the mob. So your Tactic and Twitch are dedicated to that goal. If the Market called that it was a Task there would be no problem, as a Task consumes both Tactic and Twitch.




Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 09:38:08 AM »
Option B/ I CAN DO IT ON MY OWN!
Best case scenario: Make a succesful attack (reducing mob by 1 or more) and succesful Athletics check to move SPD away.
Worst case scenario: Attack fails, Twitch must be used to dodge with an athletics check. Succes means you do get bit by the mob BUT stay in place, failure means you get damaged.

1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?
Missed attacks do not lead to damage. You must fail a dodge (Athletics roll eating rations and Twitch) to get damaged.

I wasn't saying that the missed attack lead to damage, but that it lead to an attack from the mob, which means the taker automatically had to use twitch in order to dodge it. I was thinking that there might be a situation where a taker's twitch was expended before his own initiative, which would mean failing an attack would lead to an automatic succesful hit from the mob. This is, however, a moot point, if one rules that this added risk of attacks only apply when trying to escape, as a taker that already lost his twitch wouldn't even attempt it. Overall, I agree with the idea that the risk associated with the attack only applies when trying to run away.

4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?
I would say it is spent. I think you declare at the start of your turn ( like Full Offense/Defense combat maneuvers) that you are going on full defense and trying to get away from the mob. So your Tactic and Twitch are dedicated to that goal. If the Market called that it was a Task there would be no problem, as a Task consumes both Tactic and Twitch.

Considering that the rules state that it can be rolled as one Task, I think this interpretation makes a lot of sense.

LordSkys

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 11:56:54 AM »
This part of the rules actually makes okay sense, at least when you have heard a bit of actual play Podcasts. It breaks down like this.

option A/RUN AWAY!
According to Market use Tactic and Twitch to roll two Athletics to move SPD away. Or Market can make it a Task (consuming Tactic + Twitch) to roll a Athletics check to move SPD away, if he wants failure to be less likely,costly and minimize dice rolling for the Taker. Note that there is no attack on failed Athletics checks but you have wasted rations and are still in the grip of the mob, so you will be attacked at the end of the round.

Then comes the more risky options, as the book says: Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape.

Option B/ I CAN DO IT ON MY OWN!
Best case scenario: Make a succesful attack (reducing mob by 1 or more) and succesful Athletics check to move SPD away.
Worst case scenario: Attack fails, Twitch must be used to dodge with an athletics check. Succes means you do get bit by the mob BUT stay in place, failure means you get damaged.

Option C/WITH A BIT OF HELP FROM MY FRIENDS I CAN SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE AFTER I RUN AWAY:
Assumes: Someone before your initiative has reduced Mass by one or more this round either by joining you at Shamble 1 or shooting into melee.'
The checks works similar to option B but the other Taker has freed up your attack action, so you can use your twich first, to roll Atheltics to move SPD away on a succes. On failure you get damaged and stay in place. But you can try again with your Tactic.
If you succed however with your Twitch you can use your Tactic to attack the mob with a ranged/reach weapon.
-->So only chose Option C if you absolutely need to attack the mob otherwise take the safer option A.

Option D/KILL THEM ALL!
You have killed them all. You are safe for now. But what was the cost?

To answer your questions:

1. Even if a taker is not trying to escape, will a missed attack against a mob lead to an attack of opportunity?
Missed attacks do not lead to damage. You must fail a dodge (Athletics roll eating rations and Twitch) to get damaged.

2. If someone else reduce the mass of the mob by 1, does the taker trying to flee get hit in the face by failing to flee? Does he actually, by failing both his tactics athletics roll and his twitch athletics roll, get hit twice?
Yes, I would say so. From option B I think we can be quite certain failed Athletics rolls (dodge) leads to getting damaged. And yes, you can get damaged twice if you fail both Atheltics checks to run away.

3. Does this mean that by using option a, you are safeguarded against getting hit on failures?
  Yes it does. Option A is the safest thing you can do in the short term. As the text mentions:" Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape." Only use option B if you are alone or option C if you are not alone.

4. using option a, if the taker fails the first check granted by the tactics, does that mean he would have a twitch left to do something else with, or was that spent as well?
I would say it is spent. I think you declare at the start of your turn ( like Full Offense/Defense combat maneuvers) that you are going on full defense and trying to get away from the mob. So your Tactic and Twitch are dedicated to that goal. If the Market called that it was a Task there would be no problem, as a Task consumes both Tactic and Twitch.

There is no such thing as an attack of opportunity for Casualties. They get one action, and one action only, always at the end of the combat round. They automatically get lowest initiative, even if a player rolls a 2 initiative. (lowest in the game for players)

Frenzy is the amount of struggling YOU have to do to escape. Frenzy has no effect on the actual Casualties, but two actions need to be made to escape for the Taker. The options are just different examples of these combinations of actions. The threatened Taker must use one of the options, because those are the only combinations available for escape, since two actions are needed.
The exception is taking them all out, which just nullifies the danger.

Full Defense only needs be declared when you turn the tactic into a twitch; unlike full offense, which has to be declared at the start of the round.
It is easier to turn a tactic to a twitch than a twitch to a tactic.

Casualties only take actions at the end of the combat round, even after your second tactic if you go full offense.
The reason you are likely to be hit is if you used (but failed one of) your two actions trying to get away. You have no actions left, so it is an automatic hit from the casualties.

Thematically? That Taker is dodging and weaving, trying to avoid grabs and bites, but can't move away.
Mechanically? They failed a check and can't move. Whether it was either of their actions doesn't matter.

One last point: If you use option c, you still have one more action. You can go full Defense and try getting away, even if you already tried option c, because option c only requires one successful check on your part.
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Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 12:11:33 PM »
@LordSkys
Is it correctly understood that you mean to say that when the book states (under option b in Frenzy): "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.", that the twitch roll represents the mob attacking at the end of the round, and not a new seperate attack? And similarly with "If the tactic (attack) succeeds but the twitch (dodge) fails, Prole takes damage from the mob"?

If what you're saying is true, how exactly is it true that "Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape."? Especially if you play option a as two rolls, how it is any more risky to do one attack and then one athletics check compared to doing two separate athletic checks?

Note: "unlike full offense, which has to be declared at the start of the round." is not true. The book states (page 286): "Full offense must be declared on a player’s initiative ...". Full defense is also activated on the player's initiative: "The original twitch can go off whenever prompted by Market forces, but the second can’t be used until the player declares full defense on their initiative order.".
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 12:15:13 PM by Khargan »

LordSkys

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 12:43:25 PM »
@LordSkys
Is it correctly understood that you mean to say that when the book states (under option b in Frenzy): "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.", that the twitch roll represents the mob attacking at the end of the round, and not a new seperate attack? And similarly with "If the tactic (attack) succeeds but the twitch (dodge) fails, Prole takes damage from the mob"?

Yep
Twitch One: Navigating or bobbing and weaving. Basically, since you haven't tripped up the dead, you are juking them to avoid them. Not necessarily dodging attacks, more just trying to get around them safely. If you fail, you couldn't find a clean way through, but aren't hurt.
Twitch two: After successfully juking the mob, you run like hell. Much more straight forward.

If you fail to juke, your second one is spent dodging.
If you fail to move, the casualties get an auto attack on your turn.

If what you're saying is true, how exactly is it true that "Attacking and then running is riskier than focusing entirely on escape."? Especially if you play option a as two rolls, how it is any more risky to do one attack and then one athletics check compared to doing two separate athletic checks?

In choice B, if you fail your attack, you must start the bobbing and weaving in the first twitch of option A. You had to move towards the casualties to attack, (not mechanically, but thematically you take a half step to aid your attack or something of the like. As in real world sparring/combat) and now you are backing right up after a missed swing.
It is more dangerous because instead of focusing on escape, you decided to fight, which brings with it crit fails that can be far more disastrous. (In general, the crit fails for athletics tend to be less disastrous than the crit fails for attacking. Depending on the Market, of course.)

If you miss, then yeah that second one is the one for dodging the mob.

Note: "unlike full offense, which has to be declared at the start of the round." is not true. The book states (page 286): "Full offense must be declared on a player’s initiative ...". Full defense is also activated on the player's initiative: "The original twitch can go off whenever prompted by Market forces, but the second can’t be used until the player declares full defense on their initiative order.".
Yeah, I misspoke a little on this one.
What I meant was that the second tactic on full offense automatically goes to the end of the round, where as the second twitch can be used immediately on the player's turn.

When I said "declare at the start of the round" I meant "declare at the start of your turn in the round"
That was a complete waffle on my part.
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Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 12:57:36 PM »
@LordSkys In your interpretation, I see no reason why, after a failed attack, a taker couldn't use his twitch to quick draw something like a riot shield instead of keeping the twitch in reserve for the attack at the end of the round. But the book states: "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.", where the "has to" in my mind implies that the twitch is spent immediately to dodge an incoming attack, not the one that might arrive at the end of the round. Otherwise, the book could just have stated something along the lines of "if the attack fails, a twitch action cannot be used to escape.".

LordSkys

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 01:07:17 PM »
@LordSkys In your interpretation, I see no reason why, after a failed attack, a taker couldn't use his twitch to quick draw something like a riot shield instead of keeping the twitch in reserve for the attack at the end of the round. But the book states: "If the attack fails, the twitch has to be spent dodging attacks rather than flat-out running.", where the "has to" in my mind implies that the twitch is spent immediately to dodge an incoming attack, not the one that might arrive at the end of the round. Otherwise, the book could just have stated something along the lines of "if the attack fails, a twitch action cannot be used to escape.".

By my interpretation, the riot shield is a perfectly valid choice; and probably should have already been out since it can't be quick drawn, meaning casualties will get an auto hit.
It just means that straight up running is impossible. "Has to" just means when the time comes, that is what will happen. Zombies are predictable, they will attack, unless they have other prey.

Yes, the book definitely could have stated it like "if the attack fails, a twitch action cannot be used to escape"; but they didn't because
a) they didn't think it would be a problematic rule.
or
b) they purposefully left it vague, so that if a Market wants to interpret it differently they can.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 01:14:40 PM by LordSkys »
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Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2019, 01:36:33 PM »
@LordSkys I can definitely see how you could interpret the Frenzy section as you do, but I'd like to know how you know with any certainty that:
a) they didn't think it would be a problematic rule.
or
b) they purposefully left it vague, so that if a Market wants to interpret it differently they can.

I'm not inclined to disbelieve you if you say that you have talked with the creators about these things, but if that is the case I think it would be fitting that their intention of there potentially being two markedly different systems for frenzy rules was officially stated. I'm a rules lawyer by heart (shocker, I know) and while I don't mind vagueness (that much), it should at the very least be made perfectly clear when the rules are intended to be vague.

Note: Nothing prevents you from quick drawing a Riot Shield. It is not cumbersome, and while it is impractical to have it in your belt, you could definitely have it on your back. Those are the only requirements for quick drawing.

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2019, 02:27:49 PM »
@LordSkys I can definitely see how you could interpret the Frenzy section as you do, but I'd like to know how you know with any certainty that:
a) they didn't think it would be a problematic rule.
or
b) they purposefully left it vague, so that if a Market wants to interpret it differently they can.

I'm not inclined to disbelieve you if you say that you have talked with the creators about these things, but if that is the case I think it would be fitting that their intention of there potentially being two markedly different systems for frenzy rules was officially stated. I'm a rules lawyer by heart (shocker, I know) and while I don't mind vagueness (that much), it should at the very least be made perfectly clear when the rules are intended to be vague.

Note: Nothing prevents you from quick drawing a Riot Shield. It is not cumbersome, and while it is impractical to have it in your belt, you could definitely have it on your back. Those are the only requirements for quick drawing.

I wrote the riot shield part away from book, (mobile is beautiful, most the time) I must have thought cumbersome and not clunky. Oops.

I definitely have not talked to the creators on this subject, so mine is only one of many interpretations. As everyday people like you and me, it makes the most sense that some small thing they fleshed out and understood doesn't always convey perfectly in writing; or they just expected us to fill in the gaps. Or maybe i'm completely wrong, but I feel confident in my answer.
I honestly lean fifty/fifty on my two explanations on the vagueness on said rule, so I just used what my group uses and went from there.

If we get an actual creator on here then I have no problem saying I am wrong, but this interpretation makes the most sense to me without such input.

I know that the email for the creators is in the book, and they are very helpful and respond in a timely manner.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:32:12 PM by LordSkys »
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Dadalos

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 04:57:41 PM »
I think it important that whatever a groups judgment might be (regardless of an official answer to the point) that the group is in agreeance with how it works in their game and remain consistent to that interpretation. provided the group as a whole are happy to maintain any of the suggested  ways to look at it.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Khargan

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 05:58:49 PM »
I think it important that whatever a groups judgment might be (regardless of an official answer to the point) that the group is in agreeance with how it works in their game and remain consistent to that interpretation. provided the group as a whole are happy to maintain any of the suggested  ways to look at it.

Hey Dadalos, stop being reasonable, it's not allowed on the internet!  ;)

LordSkys

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Re: Frenzy Rules - Attacks of Opportunity?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2019, 07:48:38 PM »
I think it important that whatever a groups judgment might be (regardless of an official answer to the point) that the group is in agreeance with how it works in their game and remain consistent to that interpretation. provided the group as a whole are happy to maintain any of the suggested  ways to look at it.

Hey Dadalos, stop being reasonable, it's not allowed on the internet!  ;)

Wait... @ Khargan...

 Do we finally agree on something in this thread?  ;)
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

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