Author Topic: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?  (Read 4308 times)

Dr_NANO

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How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« on: May 29, 2019, 07:42:27 AM »
Many games have some kind of ressource that gives the players an edge on the competition, like Edge,Inspiration, Moxy, willpower etc etc.

In many of these systems it is detailed if the players can use one of these resources on a roll or more to increase their chances. In Red Markets it is not mentioned.

Can you for example flip the black and red dice for a succes (1 will) and then upgrade a succes to a critical succes (1 will) and then buy another narrative benefit to add onto an existing critical succes (1 will) for a total of 3 Will spent?

My players and I have combed the book and found no answer.

How do you play it?

LordSkys

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2019, 11:47:47 AM »
As a purely "how do you play it" answer, as much as you want to burn.

Spending a bunch of will is a short term success and a long term deficit; not like the Market is making you spend it, you just rolled bad and want it to be good.
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Diskhotep

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 12:56:44 PM »
Will is a resource for the players to manage like any other. They may spend as many points as they like to get the benefit they desire.

Keep in mind that Will is not easy to recover though - it refreshes at the beginning of the next job, not game session, and can only be recovered in play by putting themselves in trouble using their spots. As the Market, it is your responsibility to make sure they earn that point of Will. A Black Math cultist doesn't earn a point of Will just because he covers the crew's escape from a mob of casualties - he earns it because he blows an entire refresh worth of ammo on the first leg of a job picking off casualties that are no threat to the crew just to increase his k/d ratio, leaving him with low ammo for the job itself. A Taker with the Weak Spot of "Claustrophobia" doesn't earn a Will for being chosen to guard the outside of the mine shaft while the others check out the secret DHQS file storage site - he earns it after the aberrant is released and his crew is screaming for backup while he wastes two rounds standing outside making trauma checks to try and summon up the courage to go in and help his friends knowing that there are monsters in the dark and he is running right into its lair.

And remember: the Taker gets their point of Will after following their spot into trouble, not before - they don't get to have it to spend on the problem they caused.

Dr_NANO

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 06:32:35 PM »
I have not noticed that you first get the will AFTER you survive whatever trouble you stir up.

It makes sense.

Thanks for all the answers. As it is not specified in the book I will play it your way.

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2019, 08:18:09 PM »
I think we've typically played it as no more than one. It prevents a few weird power-gamey situations from developing (for example, getting intentionally bitten so you can auto-crit-succeed an infection test and become Immune). Plus it means that there's a limit on how much you can get out of a truly terrible situation.

That being said, I don't think we've really discussed it very much, so that indicates that it hasn't really been a big deal either way. So unless multi-spending is obviously causing problems in your group, it's probably fine to play it that way.
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Diskhotep

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2019, 08:36:15 PM »
I have not noticed that you first get the will AFTER you survive whatever trouble you stir up.

It makes sense.

Thanks for all the answers. As it is not specified in the book I will play it your way.

I haven't been able to find a specific reference in the rulebook mandating that is when you get the Will back - that's the way it was run most of the time during the official playtests, which I consider canon unless and until a printed rule contradicts it. As Market you determine when to hand out their Will for following spots into trouble - if you have a particularly nasty thing in mind you might give them their point early. My preference is to give it to them at the end of the trouble, once they have a moment to reflect on the consequences of their actions.

Note that following Spots into trouble only applies to Weak and Soft Spots. The Market determines when they get a Will for their Tough Spot by causing it to come into play. Latents having to deal with overt prejudice, Immunes being threatened with exposure of their secret, Hustlers getting a marker called in on them - all these are things the Market can use against a Taker during play, tossing them a point of Will when they do. Since I primarily run convention one-shots, I try and have one or two set up for each Tough Spot, and hit a player with one when I notice their Will is low, or when things slow down at the table. For a campaign game I may not use one for every player every session, but I'll likely use at least 1-2 per session, making sure everyone has to deal with their Tough Spot at least once every couple of jobs.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 08:39:50 PM by Diskhotep »

Dadalos

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 10:53:58 PM »
I find this a good Boom-Bust splitting point as well. big pulpy game? let them spend freely and reap the consequences. deep-dark-grim-dark? one at a time and slow chances to regain. tailored obviously to fit the taste of the group.

as for my own group we embraced the 'success at a cost' motto to heart, if you want to spend three on the first leg of the 4 leg mission to spy on the LaLa's last known stronghold? be my guest.  ;). that being said we also keep an eye out for opportune times to refresh that stockpile with interesting complications.
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Doc Butcher

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2019, 03:04:38 PM »
If a latent wants to lean into latency for a wil I'm fine with that... as long as it is bad enough to earn the WIL.  I thought there was a hard limit of 1 per roll.  But I don't have a reference for it.

Diskhotep

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2019, 06:16:19 PM »
If a latent wants to lean into latency for a wil I'm fine with that... as long as it is bad enough to earn the WIL.  I thought there was a hard limit of 1 per roll.  But I don't have a reference for it.

True. I mostly wanted to make the point that Tough Spots are there for the Market to push on the players - the stick to go along with whatever carrot the spot provides.

As far as the one per roll goes, I've found nothing in the book to indicate such a restriction. Like I said, they used more than one point in the official playtests on a couple of occasions, so I consider it canon until something in the printed word contradicts that, or until Caleb weighs in. I don't think either way is wrong as long as it is done consistently.

Dadalos

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Re: How many points of Will can be used on a roll?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2019, 08:39:02 PM »
I don't think either way is wrong as long as it is done consistently.

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"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."