Author Topic: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune  (Read 3290 times)

Dr_NANO

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Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« on: May 19, 2019, 11:16:34 AM »
My players and I are reading all the rules prior to starting a campaign next week, and we found a way the rules play out a bit funny together.

Lets assume you have 2 Will and a blood testing unit and you unfortunately get bit.

The blood kit allows the player to make the Infection test and spend Will to alter it. Let us say that you are unlucky and fail the roll.

If you have two will you can:

1) Switch Red and Black numbers, turning your failure into a succes.

2) Upgrade a succes to a critical succes. Meaning that you turn Immune.

I think this is a bit weird and I searched the book for a place that said maybe you can only spend one point of Will to affect a roll. But under Profit System there was no such clarification.

How do you guys play it?

Sure a blood testing unit and two will is an investment, but I think it removes quite a deal of excitement from casualty combat. I guess you would also need to check it the next round after you get bit if it is a Vector, as you turn in a matter of round equal to the Red dice. I would say the GM rolls infection when a Vector bites and the players need to do their own check with a blood testing unit before that roll expires.

LordSkys

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 12:34:10 PM »
Remember there are downsides to being immune.

An Immune's body (in full condition) is worth 350 bounty. You are the largest jackpot in the Loss right now.

You can spend as much will as you have. Sometimes luck is luck.

The it doesn't matter who rolls the infection check really, it just matters if the players know it and can modify it.
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Dr_NANO

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 12:56:03 PM »
Yeah there definately is downsides to being Immune, 350 bounty is an insane amount of money.

But then again the rules create a scenario where it is advantageous to get bit on purpose, that is what I find weird. It takes a lot of the horror out of a potentially life threatening situation.

LordSkys

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2019, 01:36:03 PM »
Yeah, but what about the trauma?
What if you Crit fail?
What about how if a mob is too big, it can drag you down and then eat you? The dead don't care if you are immune, you taste the same.
What about the fact that metagamers get the shame dice.

There shouldn't be an incentive for being bitten, unless the players want to get bit. It's their fault they tried kissing a casualty, make them feel dumb for being dumb.

All seriousness though, have them roll Foresight that the Takers can test for immunity by spending one bounty on a BTU gen 2 upgrade instead of the multiple bounty for injuries. If they fail, well... Suck.
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Laughing Penguin

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 08:55:48 PM »
We may not be playing it correctly (would like a rules check to make sure if someone has the book handy), but we've never had a case where a player can use more than one will on a single roll. So upgrade fail to a success = good. Upgrade a success to a Critical success = good. Upgrade a failure to a Critical success = NO GOOD.

Can someone rule check this for me?

LordSkys

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 10:22:51 PM »
After checking, the PDF version of the book with Ctrl+F "Will "  (the space makes it the word will instead of willing/ william/ etc) Will was only used one point at a time, but the book never says anything about how you can't use multiple Will.

RAW: No restrictions written.
Most likely RAI: Only can use one Will on any given check/roll.
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Diskhotep

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 11:54:56 PM »
It's perfect acceptable to use more than one point of Will on a roll. They did it multiple times in both the Brutalists and Fallen Flag playtests, and I've seen nothing to indicate that a restriction was made later.

Remember, Red Markets is all about attrition and resource management. By all means blow all your Will on one roll. Better hope you don't get bitten on the job. Sure, you can earn more by following your spots into trouble. But you don't get the Will until after the trouble is dealt with, so good luck.  :)

Dadalos

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 01:07:25 AM »
Remember there are downsides to being immune.

An Immune's body (in full condition) is worth 350 bounty. You are the largest jackpot in the Loss right now.

I feel that to often this gets over looked as are most 'background' details in rpgs, players take immune and now they are 'immune' to everything, talk about being immune with everyone they meet. collect bounty by digging through blight like its some guts trick from the walking dead... but never considering how many problems being immune can bring - its what makes beign a latent a justifiably better option in my opinion. also yea, there are more things out in the world that can still kill an immune ever heard of the common flu? XD

What about how if a mob is too big, it can drag you down and then eat you? The dead don't care if you are immune, you taste the same.

this is actualy how my last solo run avatar whent out, after completing 3 contracts on his own I rolled up the encounters and whent on my final job, started off well enough my fixer got me solid pay and even got me a medkit (gift spot), first leg whent alright picked up a pair of rifles out of an abandoned apc used my armorer skills to repair them scavanged enough ammo for a full load - split it 50-50 , eggs&baskets and all that / second had me take a landmine (shattered my bike i had just bought and took all the medkit to keep me patched up after fighting off the mobs attracted by said landmine) / third had me go into an office building to retrieve the HD from some executives pc, dident get past the lobby. 2 vectors at point blank after going in. emptied my guns managed to kill one before it did anything to me, droped the empty rifle kicked into the second rifle, got tore up very badly, managed to kill the second, and bled to death (out of will and failed 2 med checks back to back to stop the bleeding) after updating my voice log on my headset audio log. would have been ok if id still had the med kit but the land mine and mobs literally ate all the charges.

also theres no reason you couldn't blood test yourself with out the chance of infection if you have the upgraded blood test kits, on this particular char my first investment was a gen 2 blood test kit.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

LordSkys

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 01:24:23 AM »
Also, the rules for Will Points only allow so much.

Turn a crit failure into a failure.
Switch Black and Red Dice.
Turn a success into a crit success.

The off chance you roll a crit fail on an infection check, spend a will to turn it into a normal failure, only to realize switching the black and red doesn't matter... Because they are the same and would become a crit fail again. Or worse, nothing changes.

Before you ask, yes I am a nice Market. I don't allow people to break the rules, but I give them take backs on stupid things.

"You've been bitten by the Vector seconds before your team killed it. Do you wanna use your BTU?"
"Yes. B7/R7 Crit Fail."
"You feel the blight crawling under your skin-"
"I use a Will to upgrade it"
"...okay. You start to bleed black from your eyes, screaming to your teammates to run, and apologizing as you dash for-"
"I use another Will!"
"Okay, so you flip the red and black dice on your infection check. That makes it B7+2/R7. Two sevens is a crit fail, so you begin going latent."
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising every time we fall" - Confucius

"I got you, bro" - The Blight

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Dadalos

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 01:38:48 AM »
Also, the rules for Will Points only allow so much.

Turn a crit failure into a failure.
Switch Black and Red Dice.
Turn a success into a crit success.

Before you ask, yes I am a nice Market. I don't allow people to break the rules, but I give them take backs on stupid things.

"Okay, so you flip the red and black dice on your infection check. That makes it B7+2/R7. Two sevens is a crit fail, so you begin going latent."

heh, you are a nice market, we use a mix of boom and bust rules to flavor the game, we dont add anything to infection rules stating that blight infects everyone without bias. the best thing you could hope for in a 7/7 is that someones close enough to do something about it. HELLLOOOOO self control checks...
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone, I will turn my inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

Dr_NANO

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 05:57:17 AM »
Yeah I was also thinking about using the Gods Blight Bust rule so you do not add STR.

We have not started playing yet but I just think that buying Immunity for 1 Will (if you upgrade a succes to a critical succes) is BIG thing to get. And I was worried that it might incentivise players to seek getting bitten early in a campaign. But I guess we will start playing and then see if it is weird.

Diskhotep

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 12:48:51 PM »
Yeah I was also thinking about using the Gods Blight Bust rule so you do not add STR.

We have not started playing yet but I just think that buying Immunity for 1 Will (if you upgrade a success to a critical succes) is BIG thing to get. And I was worried that it might incentivise players to seek getting bitten early in a campaign. But I guess we will start playing and then see if it is weird.

I run Red Markets RAW vanilla (no Boom/Bust) rules, and I have yet to have a player actively try and get bitten. But if they want to game it like that, let them. After all, it's a new Tough Spot for them (which they can't leverage for Will on their own terms). Feel free to toss them a point of Will from time to time any time they encounter StopLoss, Crusaders, Stewards, etc. by making situations where their Immune status may become an issue.

Remember that even if the risk of infection is gone, that doesn't mean there won't be problems when the enclave doctor witnesses their new bite marks when they want to get patched up after a job and demanding they take Suppressin K-7864 or else ("take the shot, or take the shot"). And being Immune isn't going to be a magical shield against a couple of vectors tackling them, or a mob of casualties trying to eat them. Basically if they legitimately get bitten and do what they need to survive, don't punish them for using all the resources at their disposal. But if they are blatantly trying to metagame it by having the team latent take a nip as soon as they leave the enclave just to change their status, feel free to make their new Tough Spot as tough as you like.

Khargan

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 12:52:27 PM »
I also consider it a bit silly that you can use Will to guarantee the Immune status on failed and succesful infection checks. But I think it's ideal that Will can be used to negate a failure on a Blood Testing Kit roll. As is, to even get the chance to use Will on that roll you need the kit, which has no use outside that specific situation but still cost 2 upkeep. To avoid people starting their character out with 2 Will and getting bitten on purpose to be ensured the Latent or Immune status, a simple house rule solves the problem: For Infection checks, Will cannot be used to upgrade a success to a critical success.

This would mean that you can still "fish" for immunity if you have Will to spare, but it is by no means a guarantee and for each attempt you also risk becoming Latent instead, which in itself has a 10% risk of killing you outright. I think this sufficiently discourages any potential metagaming around Immunity and Will.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 12:54:25 PM by Khargan »

MauveHand

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 01:08:43 PM »
It comes down to interpretation on that one, really.  Like many things, there are ways the rules can be gamed if you're looking hard enough.

The first time I have a player Will themself Immune, I will alter a few things in the campaign.  Suddenly, there's a group of Suppressin farmers setting up nearby, there's a Communion sect in the neighborhood, and everybody who witnesses the act gets to make 1/3 Self Control checks on Trauma.  Once they realize what happened, it's a 1/3 on Stress, because now their friend just became Paycheck, the Taker who can pay for *everyone* to retire next session.

"Oh, you want to become Immune suddenly?  Go ahead."
"The Market is smiling.  I know that smile, it's the 'You are making a bad decision' smile."

Khargan

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Re: Infection and using two will to get auto Immune
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 02:11:10 PM »
While I acknowledge that your approach as a potential solution MauveHand, I personally think that the authenticity of the world suffers greatly when it's arbitrarily changed in order to punish players for using the rules to their advantage. Please do not misunderstand, I consider it paramount that the world reacts to the information presented to it. If it is publicly revealed that a taker is immune, it should naturally lead to heavy repercussions. What I am specifically referring to when i say "arbitrarily" is the world "meta-gaming" by changing according to information only privy to the GM and the players. I prefer to patch the loophole, or simply have the group agree not to use it, instead of compromising the integrity of the story after it's used.